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Old 09-24-2007, 07:28 PM
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Germany's been a thorn on my brain for a while now. some pieces were missing so i couldn't quite put it all together, until now.

to say that Western history of Germany as a nation has been "slaughtered" would be an understatement of a degree that i can't even fathom. although my knowledge is limited to a quick summary of its industrial rise during the early 19th century, which was quite a difficult time for that nation, just from that narrow piece of history the intent of the leaders of that time can easily be distinguished. that's how one-sided it was.

and we can't forget that period when the Berlin Wall fell. lots of unusual things happened afterwards.
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:37 PM
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Barksdale Air Force Base is being used as a jumping off point for Middle East operations. Gee, why would we want cruise missile nukes at Barksdale Air Force Base. Can’t imagine we would need to use them in Iraq. Why would we want to preposition nuclear weapons at a base conducting Middle East operations?
Don't the US Navy carrier groups in the Middle East and Indian Ocean already have tactical nukes on board? Don't they also have them on board submarines?
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:42 PM
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possibly. who knows, right?

but lets look at their track record...
  • new york, 2001 -- oops. we didn't know!
  • eye-rack - oops, bad info!
  • eye-rack today - oops, things didn't work out!

i'm finding it increasingly difficult to accept that these are all simply mistakes. the US has experienced too much war to be this incompetent. the truth is they know exactly what they're doing. the article that Vietnamita just posted is just more evidence of what the intention really is. bust out the Vodka cuz it's communism, baby!

anyways, stop setting them up so i can knock'em down! i'm on to you, xenzu!


They fucked up on many levels and in many areas. The biggest mistake was allowing the Defense Dept take the lead in almost every stage of the planning leading up to war and regime change. Nation building is a difficult endeavor to say the least and should've been left to the professionals over at the State Dept rather than the cowboys and hawks at DOD. If State was lead instead of riding shotgun, they would have advised against the entire endeavor.

Last edited by georgieboy2; 09-24-2007 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:11 PM
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This is absolute lunacy going on now. I am beginning to wonder at the mentality of the controllers of the controllers of the controlled.
i'm beginning to wonder the same since the possibility does exist that these scions of the ultra wealthy aren't too bright. it's never a promise that smart people will have smart children.

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Originally Posted by vietnamita View Post
And now, the scary part. We have a loose nuke floating around, that hasn´t been recovered. Our nuke. Not a russian nuke, not a chinese nuke, not a french nuke, not a british nuke. OUR NUKE. SOMEWHERE in God knows where. With a huge short bet on the market to expire in about 8 days.
while you've been down south, the neo-conservative pundits in power have been harping on and on about a looming event in the US. folks like Chertoff , former Senator Rick Santorum literally calls future bad events and a slew of others have been attempting to strike fear into the populace.

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“Between now and November, a lot of things are going to happen, and I believe that by this time next year, the American public’s going to have a very different view of this war, and it will be because, I think, of some unfortunate events, that like we’re seeing unfold in the UK. But I think the American public’s going to have a very different view,” said the former senator from Pennsylvania.
what would cause a man of his position to say something like this? he is literally saying that he knows something bad is going to happen.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by georgieboy2 View Post
They fucked up on many levels and in many areas. The biggest mistake was allowing the Defense Dept take the lead in almost every stage of the planning leading up to war and regime change. Nation building is a difficult endeavor to say the least and should've been left to the professionals over at the State Dept rather than the cowboys and hawks at DOD. If State was lead instead of riding shotgun, they would have advised against the entire endeavor.
they had an entire nation of people ready to be Americanized. literally begging to be Americans. how do you mess something up like that? the insurgency began when the most basic, fundamental needs to live weren't being provided. like food, water, electricity, sewage. how difficult is that to provide?

moreover, why is it in the coalition's interests for Iraq to be stable so quickly? what do they stand to gain from a stable Iraq? lower oil prices?

*note: i know i don't know what its like in Iraq. this is just from what i do know. :P

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Old 09-25-2007, 07:26 AM
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The REAL REASON why Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is here

Mr. Ahmadinejad is being incredibly naieve. Which is probably what happens when you´re not part of the tri-lateral commision, or the powers that be. Think about it. He arrived JUST IN TIME, before the short options expire, after the news about the 6 nukes flown aboard that B-52 bomber, to visit the USA. If my gut feeling is right, I wouldn´t be surprised if he´s doing this to say,

"If the USA attacks my country, I as the head of state will prove that Iran doesn´t, didn´t, and won´t provoke a war of aggression by sacrificing myself to the Lions of the attacking country."

Think about it. What kind of head of state visits the USA when the USA declares him to be public enemy number one? He´s going to martyr himself to demonstrate his country´s innocence. He knows, based on Iranian intelligence, that the US military on purpose, lost a nuke. That´s the only thing I can think of that would make him do that, to come and visit the USA, at a time when every f--king j@ck@ss neocon is drumming the wardrums to nuke, not just attack, I´m talking about nuke Iran! He´s here and the US government can take him at any moment, any time, at any place! All that publicity, all that hoopla, he´s willingly taking the flack to do what ever he can to stop a nuclear attack on his country!

Or, better yet, if that nuke is targeted for a US city, for the neocon plan to provoke the populace, he´s going to choose himself to be a sacrifice for Iran, again demonstrating the message of "Your country was nuked, yet I chose to come here and show that Iran is not involved. Take me if you wish, but my presence here is to show that we have no connection with it."

I call someone like that an incredibly brave man, and incredibly naieve. I hope he succeeds in it.

"Your mind's pictures of today are tomorrows reality."

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Old 09-25-2007, 09:56 AM
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they had an entire nation of people ready to be Americanized. literally begging to be Americans. how do you mess something up like that? the insurgency began when the most basic, fundamental needs to live weren't being provided. like food, water, electricity, sewage. how difficult is that to provide?

moreover, why is it in the coalition's interests for Iraq to be stable so quickly? what do they stand to gain from a stable Iraq? lower oil prices?

*note: i know i don't know what its like in Iraq. this is just from what i do know. :P


During the postwar period, the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) headed by Paul Bremer, governed Iraq with direct input from the key policy-makers at the Pentagon and the White House. The flawed decisions and mistakes made by those key players not only destabilized Iraq's security situation, but that it directly contributed in fueling the insurgency. U.S. mission in Iraq was doomed from the start by a failure of prewar planning. Key policy-makers at the White House and Pentagon were so blinded by ideology and disregarded the historic lessons of nation-building and adopted a false set of assumptions about Iraq and its people. The disconnect between civilian policy-makers and the military on the ground in Iraq over de-Baathification and the dissolution of the Iraqi Army are some of the mulitple mistakes that further aggravated the difficult post-conflict recontruction mission to the point where it's now nearly impossible to recover from.

The first big order of the Coalition Provisional Authority was CPA Order No. 1 which was de-Baathification.
de-Baathification drove 40,000 to 45,000 Baathists underground and wouldn't be able to bring back the government in a functional capability, because all the talent was in those first three or four levels of the Baath Party. The Baath Party members comprised most of the bureaucrats and civil servants in Iraq. You remove that amount of talent that had knowledge and experience in running the country, most everything else goes including the most basic services like electricity runs and traffic lights.

CPA Order No. 2 was dissolving the Iraqi army.
Bremmer's decision in dissolving the Iraqi army was the another huge blunder. State Dept wanted to keep as much of the Iraqi army intact as possible. The Iraqi army was about 400,000. State Dept wanted to bring between 150,000 and 250,000 back. State Dept and US military liason officers on the ground had contacts with Iraqi commanders who were waiting on our orders to immediately reconstitute their units. We wanted to keep them in their unit structures, because they had already had a command-and-control system. They had vehicles or what was left of them. They knew how to take orders, and they had the basic skill sets to do the things you need to do in early reconstruction of a country. So they were a labor force, and they provide a certain amount of security, like guarding static locations such as guarding buildings, guarding ammo dumps or displaced ammunition, etc...

By May 15, 2003, we had a large number of Iraqi army located that were ready to be reconstituted at a moments notice and the Treasury guys were ready to pay them. Another consequence for an order to dissolve the Iraqi army, you suddenly tell somewhere between 300,000 and 400,000 soldiers that they're out of jobs, and they're all still armed. Now, you have a situation where they could become insurgents or terrorists. Another positive reason for reconsituting the Iraqi army is that we never had a force level high enough to provide the amount of security that we needed. Keeping part of the Iraqi army intact would have solved a number of problems we faced during the early days after we took Baghdad.

I think we should have started the constitutional process right away, and we should have shaped that constitutional process. Instead, we shifted from the Iraqi perception of us being liberators to the Iraqi perception of us being occupiers.

The civilian personnel at the CPA were also another major problem. At the beginning, one of Bremmer's deputies asked large executive headhunting firms to come to the Pentagon and help identify promising candidates to go to Baghdad. When the White House liaison office to the Pentagon found out about this, they freaked, and they ordered those guys to pack up and leave that same day. Bremer's deputy interceded and managed to keep the headhunters around, but their jobs were relegated to sort of vetting people's résumés. The actual decisions of who's going to be brought in, that all rested with the White House and the White House's people at the Pentagon, and with people like Paul Wolfowitz and Don Rumsfeld. As a result, many of the civilian personnel were young 20-something Republican loyalists who had no knowledge or experience in what were needed in the reconstruction and stabilization of the new Iraq. Instead of hiring people with knowledge of Arabic, knowledge of the Middle East, knowledge of post-conflict reconstruction, they went after the political loyalists and conservative think tanks and other places where they knew they would find people who would be unfailingly loyal to the president and to the president's mission in Iraq. They didn't know what they were supposed to be doing or who they were supposed to be working for. There were problems from the most basic duties like filling out forms to knowledge in how to establish law enforcement agecies and how to train police officers to knowing the mechanisms in building political parties and procedures in getting electricity back on. Many were totally unsuited for what they were doing and had no relevant experience.

Furthermore, the fact that life in the Green Zone being walled off from the rest of Iraq didn't help either. In the rest of Iraq, electricity is intermittent at best, sewage problems, dusty, dirty, potholes. Inside the Green Zone is relatively calm and quiet. These civilians working for the CPA had an incredible disconnect from the reality outside of the Green Zone. Outside, Iraq was in a fair degree of postwar chaos. There wasn't much electricity. There was a beginning of rampant crime on the streets, traffic jams. Nobody was working. Anarchy was beginning to take hold.


"they had an entire nation of people ready to be Americanized. literally begging to be Americans. how do you mess something up like that?"

Very easy to mess up if you have no real plans for post-conflict reconstruction and stabilization. The problem is further aggravated when key policy-makers know little to almost nothing about the history and culture of Iraq. For example, when you have a situation where key policy-makers have no clue what the term, Sunni and Shiite, refers to, it makes an already difficult mission nearly impossible.


"the insurgency began when the most basic, fundamental needs to live weren't being provided. like food, water, electricity, sewage. how difficult is that to provide?"

I agree with you. It shouldn't have been difficult in providing them with those basic necessities. However, the lack of security on the ground since the actions of the CPA have created extremely difficult if not impossible situation to have reliable basic services due to constant sabotage/attacks to by Al Quada insurgents, sectarian groups and ordinary criminals activities involving theft. Even Iraq's oil production is way below pre-invasion production levels as a result of the constant sabotage to pipelines and oil well drilling operations. Although it's been over 3 yrs after the invasion of Iraq, they currently still face unreliable electrical services and shortages in many regions, shortages for gas with lines blocks long and so many other basic services.

Those are a few random thoughts to your questions, but there's so much more to this mess that historians will be discussing this event long into the future much like the history of the Vietnam War.
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:16 AM
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